As I wrote in my 3am Bag Lady Blues essay, the ‘Who’s going to be there for me when I’m old?’ thought is one that keeps many women without children awake. Doing the research for that piece, and reading the many thoughtful comments after it was published, I learned that it’s a fear that keeps many of us awake, whether we have children and partners or not, and actually regardless of our financial situation.
However, I do feel that those of us aging without adult children (for whatever reason) have to face those fears in the daytime too, because we simply don’t have the option to drift back into an unconscious fantasy that somehow, if it comes to it, our kids will help out. (Which as not-plans goes, isn’t always a good one.)
I often feel that one of the reasons society unconsciously fears and ‘others’ older women without children is that we represent an embodiment of human vulnerability as we age.
But it’s not actually dying we’re scared of, it’s living in vulnerability, and not having the relationships in place that might bear the weight of those vulnerabilities should we need them.
And so I really hope you enjoy this video discussion between eight nomocrones (nomo = not mother + crone is not an insult!) from their mid-fifties to late-seventies, in which we explore the issues, fears, realities and possible solutions. We look at our stories and situations from multiple angles from the practical to the metaphysical, and we don’t shy away from tackling the crunchy stuff such as health, creating alternative communities of care, housing, finances, loneliness, lack of intimacy, purpose and meaning. There is no one-answer-fits-all to aging without children (or with), because we each become more and more differentiated as we age, not less.
Thank you to my guests:
Vicki Robin (US) is almost 80 and a prolific social innovator, writer and speaker. As well as a best-selling author, she is co-founder of Conversation Cafes and the 10-Day Local Food Challenge, and hosts the podcast/YouTube series, What Could Possibly Go Right? Currently, she’s exploring ‘the unmapped territory from older to elder’ on her Substack Coming of Aging. Vicki serves on the Board of the Post Carbon Institute and lives by herself on Whidbey Island in Washington State, USA.
Donna Ward (AUS) is 70 and is a writer, editor, publisher and former psychotherapist from Western Australia who now lives in Melbourne. She is the author of a 2020 memoir She I Dare Not Name: A Spinster’s Meditations on Life, published by Allen & Unwin Australia and the CEO of a new campaigning organisation, Singlehood Australia.
Sue Fagalde Lick (US) is in her early 70s and is the author of numerous books, including most recently her memoir No Way Out of This: Loving a Partner with Alzheimer’s about her marriage to Fred, his decline, her life whilst being his sole carer and his death. A musician and singer, she lives alone in rural Oregon and writes a Substack about her experience of ‘solo ageing’ called Can I Do It Alone?
Julie Greenan (UK) is 70 and has recently started sharing her writing on Substack. She’s single, having been married and had several long-term relationships in the past and has no children, but prefers to avoid categorising herself as either childless or childfree. Julie’s been a regular panellist on stages and podcasts discussing her experience of being single and childless, and is an active member of the Childless Collective (formerly Gateway Women) online community.
Carol Scott (UK) is in her mid-60s and is a therapist with extensive experience working with those who are childless-not-by-choice. She is currently writing a book about becoming single after the end of a long relationship, with the working title of ‘Beyond Break Up’ which includes a chapter on being single and childless not by choice.
Susan Dowrie (AUS) is in her early 60s and a long-time member of the Childless Collective (formerly Gateway Women) Online Community, as well as having hosted the Brisbane Gathering for members for several years. Susan describes herself as an ‘unapologetic Spinster’ and is single and childless due to not meeting the right man. She has recently sold her home of many years and is exploring solo van life on the road in Australia.
Ruth Berkowitz (US) is in her mid-fifties and is a Holistic Well-being Coach for childless-not-by-choice people and an Insight Meditation Teacher. Within the Childless Collective (formerly Gateway Women) online community, Ruth hosts its Mispacha group for childless Jewish women.
Jody Day 00:00
Jody, Hello everyone, and welcome to Fireside Wisdom with Childless Elderwomen. I'm Jody Day, founder of Gateway Women, and your host this evening, and we're going to be discussing solo elderhood with this wonderful panel of elder women guests from literally around the world.
Jody Day 00:23
So I'm going to introduce them to you before we kick off. The top left on my screen is Carol Scott, and this is Carol's first time with us. Carol Scott is from the UK. She's 70, and she's been a therapist for 25 years. She's worked extensively with those who are childless not by choice, and went through her own journey of miscarriages and baby loss. Carol is currently writing a book and creating a six-week program about recovering from the end of a long-term relationship with the working title of 'Beyond Breakup', which includes a chapter single and childless, not by choice.
Jody Day 01:06
Top right of my screen is Vicky Robin. So Vicky Robin is in the Pacific Northwest in the USA. She's almost 80, and is a prolific social innovator, writer and speaker, as well as a best-selling author. She is the co-founder of Conversation Cafes and the 10 Day Local Food Challenge, and hosts the podcast YouTube series, 'What Could Possibly Go Right'. Currently, she's exploring 'unmapped territory from older to elder' on her fabulous Substack 'Coming of Aging'. Vicky serves on the board of the Post Carbon Institute and lives by herself on Whitby Island in Washington State, USA.
Jody Day 01:45
Okay, second line on my left is Julie Greenham. Julie Greenham is 70 and lives in the north-east of England, and has just started sharing her writing on Substack. (By the way, I'll share all the links for these later). She's single, having been married and had several long-term relationships in the past, and has no children and prefers to avoid categorizing herself as either childless or childfree. Julie has been a regular panelist on stages and podcasts discussing her experience of being single and childless, and is an active member of our online community.
Jody Day 02:19
Susan Dowrie in Australia, currently on the road in New South Wales, is in her early 60s and a long-time member of the Childless Collective online community, as well as having hosted the Brisbane gathering for our community for several years. She describes herself as an unapologetic spinster and is single and childless due to not meeting the right man. She has recently left her home of many years and is exploring solo van life on the road in Australia, a dream of so many of us, and we're going to hear more about that.
Jody Day 02:51
And next up is Donna Ward. Donna is 70, and is a writer, editor, publisher and former psychotherapist from Western Australia who now lives in Melbourne. She is the author of a 2020, memoir, 'She I Dare Not Name: A Spinsters Meditations on Life', a fantastic book published by Alan and Unwin Australia and a campaigner on the issues facing older singer childless women in Australia. And actually Donna let me know that singlehoodaustralia.org now has a website, which is where a lot of her advocacy has been focused. We'll talk about that a bit more, no doubt later.
Jody Day 03:32
Bottom left on my screen is Sue Fagalde Lick, also from America. She's in her early 70s, and is the author of numerous books, including, most recently, her memoir, 'No Way Out of This: Loving a Partner with Alzheimer's' about her marriage to Fred, his decline, her life whilst being his sole carer and his death. A musician and singer, she lives alone in rural Oregon and writes a Substack about her experience of solo aging called, Can I Do It Alone?
Jody Day 04:00
And finally, last but definitely not least, Ruth Berkowitz, bottom right, is in her mid-fifties and is a holistic well being coach for childless not by choice people, and an Insight Meditation teacher. Within our online community. Ruth hosts its Mishpatcha group for Jewish childless women. Ruth is based on the East Coast of the USA.
Jody Day 04:22
So thank you to my amazing panellists. Thank you so much for being here. I know it's a really busy time of year to do something like this. And thank you to all of our participants - so many of you have shown up live. It's really lovely to have you here. So I want to let you know that the last 15 minutes, we do extra questions, if you didn't get a chance to send one in before, and if we haven't covered that topic, there's a Q&A button at the bottom of the screen. Click that and you can put your question in there, and I will sort of pose it anonymously to the panellists. Can't promise we can do them, although I'm afraid we've got a lot of people.
Jody Day 04:59
So the topic of solo elderhood is a really important one because it's extraordinary. I've read an awful lot of books on aging, and on women's aging, and with the exception of about two, almost every single book seems to presume that the reader is married or partnered, heterosexual, owns property, has children and possibly has grandchildren as well; a very heteronormative, wealthy, sort of middle-class idea of what aging looks like despite the fact that actually, 20% of the cohort might be aging without children, and many without partners as well. Perhaps they don't have a partner, or their partner has predeceased them, like it is with Sue, as this is often the way aging works - quite often, if you do have a long-time partner, you might find yourself aging alone at a certain point as well.
Jody Day 05:59
But there are also many, many more women who have never been as the UN cutely calls it 'married or in a long-term union'. (I love that word union; I don't know why!) And the numbers are really increasing. Since the 1970s in the UK, for example, the number of women who are neither married nor in a long term union has gone up by 70% and actually, all over the world, the number of women who are not in long-term committed partnerships has massively increased. (Interesting enough Donna, it hasn't gone up as much in Australia as in other places. I think perhaps there's been a stronger culture of single women in Australia for longer. Maybe we can talk about that?)
Jody Day 06:47
I am partnered. I was partnered when I was younger, divorced and childless through my 40s and early 50s, and now at 60, I've been with my long-term partner for eight years. But I'm really passionate about the experience of women without children and partners, because we keep getting left out of the story, as if we're not there. And those of you who know me, if there's something we're not talking about in the culture, that’s usually what I love to talk about!
Jody Day 07:18
So we've had about 300 questions sent in by you when you registered —thank you so much. There’s no way that we’re going to be able to get to them all so what I’ve done is group them into them themes. And so what I'd like to do is maybe just talk about the first theme, which I've called 'meaning, purpose, loneliness and connection'. So these are questions around loneliness and isolation, having a desire for connection, including sometimes partnership, concerns around existing friendships with mother friends and family members, finding ways to embrace the single life, including pushing back against ageism and singleism, and really how to find meaning and purpose and how to find each other. I mean, you can see that is a huge topic. You can kind of pick what you like from it. Is there any one of my panelists who would like to speak to meaning, purpose, loneliness and connection?
Sue Fagalde Lick 08:35
That is so huge, I don't know how to get a hold on that. But yeah, loneliness is a big problem. And I'm, you know, there were all kinds of people who are usually partnered and have families and stuff, will say, you know, well join a club volunteer, blah, blah, blah—that does not bring them into your home and into your daily life. It's not the same thing. I've got all kinds of activities going, but there are still those moments where it's just damn there's nobody here, there's nobody to talk to. No one has called me except one person I asked to call me since Friday, and it's just a lonely time. You do what you can. You have to reach out as much as you can, but it gets it's difficult. You start feeling like you can't, that it's too hard that well, they should be calling me, you know, you feel invisible. So there's that. And you do have to have a purpose. My work gives me a purpose, but there's still times when I'm too tired to work, and it's like, now I don't know what to do, but you've got to have some kind of purpose to keep you going. And you need to be open and honest with the people you do run into and say, you know, I'm lonely. I need some company. You need to reach out.
Jody Day 09:55
And I think for you also the church and playing music for the church, those regular things that that we're part of can be become almost like scaffolding.
Sue Fagalde Lick 10:07
It's an anchor, yeah? It gives me something to hold on to, or it's like Christmas... Going into Christmas, what was I going to do? Well, I finally have an invitation to dinner, but otherwise all I had was church, but at least I had that.
Jody Day 10:22
And you wrote a really gorgeous blog, I think, that came out yesterday on your Substack about the exhaustion and expense of buying and mailing gifts to other people's kids that you know, with diminishing returns on that in terms of a thank you these days. I posted your article in the online community and my social media and it got a big response. I think people were coming and commenting because it touched a nerve...
Sue Fagalde Lick 10:56
Yes. I'm getting a big response too. The thing was, my, my brother's family is growing exponentially, and it's still just me, and so the workload is getting bigger and bigger and bigger, and at what point do you say, Well, I can't, I can't do this anymore. So it's a dilemma.
Jody Day 11:16
I think also you touched on something there Sue that maybe someone else wants to pick up on perhaps Vicky, is that when we live alone, for whatever reason, and we don't have family, the onus is always on us to initiate everything, and sometimes that just gets exhausting. And I think people who haven't, who haven't been single for extended periods, perhaps, don't understand the cognitive load of that.
Sue Fagalde Lick 11:45
No, they're forming a new group at our church as we speak, and I'm not there. I'm one of the few women who did not join because I said I'm already overwhelmed, because, you know, I'm doing my work and I'm taking care of everything with the house and me. Nobody else is going to help with the groceries or anything else. I don't have any more bandwidth, and they don't understand,
Vicki Robin 12:18
Ironically or not, this is the anniversary of a something I did to handle that feeling of being always the one who reaches out… I screwed up my courage and I was given a space in the community, this beautiful ceremonial space. I invited 24 of the women I really like, who I feel a feeling of love for. And in a way, I said it's just, I want to have what's called, you know, in Lakota, a Wopila, a thanking ceremony. I want to thank you for being my friends. I needed to do something to get over my own feeling of exclusion, my own inner conversation about it. So I invited them all, and excuse me, I don't have teeth in the front temporarily. I'm sort of enjoying it.
Vicki Robin 13:28
Anyway, so it was dark, because it's in the Pacific Northwest. I bought gifts for everybody. I bought these little prayer dolls and these little quartz hearts, and I was nervous as hell. You know, I was just like, because it's that feeling of like, what if I say I love you, and nobody says I love you back? And so and so. They all came, and I welcomed them and in front of every seat, I had a little pouch with all their gifts in it. I had no idea what to do next. That was my entire success. So one of my friends said one, because they're people from different parts of my life, go around the circle and have people say how they met you. Okay, fine. So the first person was, you know, short, and then the next person was longer, longer, longer. And it ended up being my memorial. It was like people talking about where they met me and what I meant to them, and it crushed—it crushed the inner voice that says if I don't keep generating, I will be forgotten. That's like, I have to keep generating, or I disappear from other people's lives. So I realized this year I was going to write everybody a letter. It's like, that feeling is gone, and I feel, wow, it's really changed things.
Jody Day 13:40
That's an extraordinary thing to do and incredibly brave. I was just thinking, oh, yeah, I'll do that. And then I thought, mmmmmmm?
Vicki Robin 15:01
Yeah, everyone should have a memorial before they die.
Julie Greenan 15:05
There's some comments in the chat to the same effect saying, that's a wonderful, brave thing to do. Yeah, amazing.
Jody Day 15:15
So, I mean, one of the parts of these questions that came in, there were quite a few people asking, ‘how do we find other women like us?’
Carol Scott 15:24
Can I just add something about me being on purpose? Because I'm kind of just, like, a couple of years into being solo. I came out of a 20-year relationship in the pandemic—apparently, the divorce rates went sky high—it was like, you know, the final straw, if something wasn't working, it was truly going to break in the pandemic. And I was really on my knees, and it was like, okay, I've got no partner now, I've got no children, I don't have grandchildren. I was at rock bottom. And I think in a way, I kind of needed to go there, because I reached a point where I thought: ‘What is the point of me?’ And I thought, oh, gosh, I'm buying into patriarchy, pronatalism, when I when I say things like that…
Carol Scott 16:13
And I came to the conclusion that the point of me is that I am here with or without children. I contribute to my environment, to my friendships, which are really my family in a way, although, you know, sometimes I feel a bit let down by them. And my purpose and meaning in life in a 20-year relationship was based around that relationship. So when it's no longer, it's like, I've got to redefine this now for myself, one as I get older, and because the things that gave me meaning and purpose don't fit anymore, or I can't do them anymore.
Carol Scott 16:59
You know, I went off to Botswana earlier this year camping. I mean, I'm not a camper, and what made me go, I don't know, but I went and found my inner camper girl, and absolutely loved it. But I came back and I needed another holiday after that holiday, because it wasn't a holiday, it was an expedition! You know, camping in the wild is brilliant, but it's like, now I think I'm slowly coming to a place of meaning and purpose. It feels like it's more of an internal thing rather than an external one... I'm quiet in myself. I've just been ill for two weeks, nasty virus, hardly seen a soul, and I've really had to rely on myself. And it's like, it's kind of like Finding Nemo, it's like I've got to find me, the real me, at this stage of life, who's very different to even ten, twenty years ago. So it feels like a very different thing, meaning and purpose.
Jody Day 18:03
Thank you for that. Because I think that the literature around aging, and particularly sort of the field of spiritual aging, really talks to this idea that there is this shift a more internal life that happens that perhaps when we don't have the energy or the interest, perhaps in an external life, there is a shift to the internal.
Donna Ward 18:30
I wanted to talk about a book called Single Women on the Margins. It was published in 1994 by Tuula Gordon, who recently died. Actually, I found out, and thought to myself, ‘Oh, I think now with Zoom, I can actually meet this woman who changed my life, but I missed her by about three months—that was a bit tragic for me. But one of the t
hings that she noticed when she did a piece of research on a range of women who are in Norway and also the UK, and who had been single in various ways throughout their lives. But what she noted in that piece of research was that for those women, and this is certainly true of myself, who've been single all their life, aging is a much easier process, and coming to terms with meaning and aloneness is a much easier transition, because you don't have the grief of losing that relationship that was so important, or several relationships that have been important to you, or not having children for whatever reason. So that was one thing I wanted to just put into the discussion is that if you've been doing it for longer, it's easier in the end. So just a heads up to those of us who've been spinsters all our lives.
Donna Ward 19:53
The other thing that I wanted to say about meaning, I think meaning such a big existential question. Your relationship status, your parental status, doesn't really, you know, cut the mustard, like if you if you're finding meaning only out of those things, I think you know, you've missed the point of life somehow. And it's easy to miss the point of life, because that's all we ever talk about, is whether or not we're coupled and have children, so don't see that as a judgment from me. But I think the big thing about meaning is the fact that we (and I've said this many times in this forum) that we are embodied consciousness in flesh. That is the meaning of life, the adventure. I was saying this to a friend just yesterday who was talking about, we're talking about the idea that the body betrays us. It's a phrase that people with cancer often use. ‘My body's betrayed me’. My friend used it because her knees were betraying her, a couple of other things were betraying her. And I was saying, this is just the experience of being embodied consciousness in flesh. The adventure is because our consciousness has this idea that we last forever, that it's eternal, we get a shock that our bodies actually aren't even though we know every day flowers bloom and die, we tell ourselves this by putting bunches of flowers on our table. Remember, morte? Remember? So I think that you know when, when I'm having those feelings of, Oh my God, what am I here for? I remember I'm here because I'm consciousness, embodied in flesh, and that's the big adventure. All the rest is Christmas decorations on the tree. The tree is what's important.
Jody Day 21:38
Thank you, Donna, yeah. I wish I wish I could be that wise at seven o'clock in the morning. Thank you so much.
Ruth Berkowitz 21:56
Sort of along the same transcendental lines. Well, I've had back problems since my 20s, and worked on and off, and have been convalescing at different points. Work has been challenging, and so I've had I've spent a lot of my adulthood not working, or working very part-time or underemployed, and so I really built the muscle of not tying my identity and purpose to my work, my profession. And I have a somatic healing teacher, and she said to me, God or life hasn't forsaken you, and just being present to nature is a purpose, and maybe that'll resonate with other tree huggers out there.
Ruth Berkowitz 22:58
And as my world, my world has already gotten smaller as I age, as I add menopausal body aches and my mobility is challenging. Because of the spiritual practice I've done for years of, you know, mindfulness and really cultivating a relationship with myself that isn't judgmental, that's caring, I can just savor the small moments and find the meaning in just walking the same earth behind my home with my dog and through the different seasons, and being a witness to that. I find a lot of meaning in that and connection and belonging. I belong to the earth. I belong, What a what a magnificent thing that I'm walking this earth with this beautiful creature that I'm so bonded to, that's been with me through so much, through the seasons.
Vicki Robin 24:13
One thing I want to speak for people who's who've been divorced or whose husbands have died for whom it's a liberation, it's not an abandonment. I just think there's plenty of us who are might be like that.
Jody Day 24:28
Okay, thank you. And to those people. I hope you feel heard and seen.
Jody Day 24:34
Donna, what you were just saying about it perhaps it being less of a transition for those who've been single and haven't had children for a long time. Because something I'm really noticing amongst those in my life, and I'm lucky to include you in that, who haven't had children, and who've had to develop a conscious relationship to that experience, whether it's been by choice or not, have had to live outside the mainstream, because we're not mothers and we're not partners. Is that it has (doesn't always), but it gives an opportunity for a level of spiritual, emotional and intellectual courageousness that can produce the most remarkable people.
Jody Day 25:33
And certainly, I think for me, as I move into the aging part of my life, I am so grateful to have done so much work to recover my identity from, ‘If I'm not a mum, what am I?’ You know, as Carol said, that sense of like, ‘Well, who am I? What am I for?’ You know, that's what I spent my 40s doing—scraping that part of me off the floor and finding meaning just in being, being me, being alive, walking on this earth, as Ruth said. And the internal reflection of the aging process I'm enjoying—the limited lifespan of the body parts, less so, but I have resources for that. And I'm noticing that perhaps some of my friends who are mothers, and who've had that valued social identity, they haven't done this work yet…
Jody Day 26:39
The next big theme of questions, which we could do basically about 10 weeks on… And we’ve got ten minutes is basically 'who's going to be there for me when I'm old?' And I wanted to share an anecdote with you about this to kick us off. So 10 years ago, I was part of a group of four campaigners in the UK, and we came together to form a campaigning group called Ageing Without Children - AWOC - and I remember we had done this big report, and we were having this launch for the report, and there were lots of sort of parliamentary big-wigs and things like that at this, at this drinks function. And quite a lot of the people there were parents. And I remember two people came up to me, and, you know, said, ‘Very good what you're doing… Have another glass of warm white wine, kind of thing. And then they said, 'You know, I didn't have children so that they could take care of me when I was old!' And I was like, ‘Yeah, I get that. I mean, when I was trying to conceive, it never came into my mind. I wasn’t trying to have children so they would be there for me. But once I knew I definitely wasn't going to be having children, I noticed that almost the next thought that came into my mind was, ‘who's going to be there for me when I'm old?’ So it's great that you don't want your children to be there for you and so I'm really curious what plans you're putting in place instead?’
Jody Day 28:01
Can we just take a moment to think about what the answers might have been to that?! Something along the lines of ‘Oh, I think I need a refill!' before they moved away—because unconsciously, they were relying on it—they just didn't know that they were. And when we don't have children by choice, not by choice, or any of the gray areas in between, then we don't have that unconscious fantasy. Now it's possibly not even a very good idea to have that unconscious fantasy, because we don't know how our relationships will unfold with our children. Our children could predecease us, we could be estranged from them. So many things could happen - we might not even like them very much when it comes to that time of life when they're making crucial decisions for us.
Jody Day 28:51
So actually having a different plan, thinking consciously about gathering a community around us that we can trust as we get old. I think it's something would help a lot of people, but for those of us aging without children, that's really what we have to do. And actually a shout out to our queer brothers and sisters, who’ve been doing this forever, you know, creating chosen families, building those relationships over a long time. And if Stella Duffy was here tonight, she'd say that ‘we all need to queer up our elderhood plans.’ So shout out to lovely Stella tonight.
Jody Day 29:27
So yeah, I mean the questions, some of the questions that came in around you know, who's going to be there for me? How do I do my estate planning and my end-of-life planning? A lot of people are involved in caring for their own elderly parents, and there is this default carer assumption that the single childless daughter will be the one that steps up into that role, without any thought about the fact that this may impact her financially in saving for her own old age. It may also impact her relationally. She may not be able to meet people, create connections, possibly find a partner, or even just have a community, you know. And there's no promise that her sibling’s kids are going to look after her either. So this idea that she can sort of be thrown to the wolves, and it doesn't matter. Issues around housing. How do we live? Do we want co-housing, co-living? The precarity of, you know, of a lot of housing situations for older, single women, you know, living in the rental sector, this presumption, again, that everyone is sitting on property that's going to look after them in their old age, this is not true. Creating communities, managing finances and managing our health. Now, like I said, that's a 10-week course!
Sue Fagalde Lick 30:46
It is a 10 week course. And we did do a webinar on this a while back - if you can put the the link to that for people to watch that again, because there's so much. I mean, just, you know, every time I go to the doctor, 'Who's your emergency contact person?' and I'm like, okay, my brother lives far away, and he's pretty much all I've got. So I've got some neighbors that I put down, but it's, it's, it's iffy, it's always a big problem. And you think that you've got it in place and things change. So that's my big goal for the coming year, is to get that nailed down completely. Because I've been in the situation, I was at the hospital and needed a ride and didn't know who to call. It's terrible, and I've been very sick where I really wish someone could care for me. These things are not good, not good. You do need a plan somehow, even if you have to hire somebody, which gets into the money issue. A lot of elder women don't have much money, very little to live on, and they're scraping by, and a medical emergency can just ruin them. You know, they just get prescriptions they can't afford, so they don't get them, there's a lot of lot of financial problems. So it is, it is not easy. And people assume, you know, medical people always assume you have someone who's going to watch out over you after you get home, who's going to give you rides if you need one, and it's not fair to assume that, because many, many of us are on our own. So it's a dilemma, but we do need to make a plan, and we need to make it, you know, yesterday.
Jody Day 30:46
I'm going to move to Julie next. But first of all, I just wanted to say that there's lots coming up in the chat about this. There is a lot to be worried about, and many of the so called solutions, like co-housing are actually really expensive and out of people's reach. So what I'm doing in my life, and I know a lot of people are really interested in this, and this is something I'll be helping other people to do in a few years time is this, I've started something called ALTERKIN which stands for alternative kinship network, and I'm actually building a conscious mutual aid community around me—intergenerational- it's not a friendship group. Yes, we're friendly, but actually, all of us are aging without children from 40 to 80, because I think the intergenerational aspect is really important as well. And it's like we know why we're coming together, because we each understand this vulnerability. And over the next few years, as that’s rolling out, I'll be learning from it, creating a mutual aid community in a very small rural community - it's very delicate, you know - so there's also a limit to what I'm going to be able to share, because there's needs to be a lot of confidentiality. But the principles are like, how do I create something so that, like Sue, I have someone who can come and look out for me. There will be a group of people who who might say, ‘A.ctually, Jody is just back from hospital. You know, I'll pop into her on Monday. I'll pop into her on Tuesday. Someone else can walk the dog.' We need to spread this around a group of people... we all worry about being a burden. But actually, my experience is, actually people really like to support each other, but what we do seem to have lost, in many ways, is ways of asking for help and ways of receiving help.
Julie Greenan 34:33
Quite a lot of what you just said, really. Jody, I was just going to comment in the same way. And you know, I just, I think it's worth saying again, really, how much fear and panic and anxiety there is for us around this. You know, I know from primarily from friends, from within Childless Collective and Gateway Women and people who may be perhaps still in their 50s, so not as old as us, and are so busy caring for perhaps an elderly mother or another dependent, which is in itself a constant reminder of what you're not going to have - who'se going to do this for me? Yeah, and also who are just worn out with walking, working and doing that, no energy left to develop anything else. And, you know, I'm panicking in my turn, because I kind of feel well, I think one of the things about being single, perhaps, maybe this is my assumption, is that you're not always necessarily so rooted in one place, you know? I mean, I live in a rental home, a rented flat. I was previously living in Spain until 2 years ago. And one of the reasons I eventually managed to decide that I needed to move back to England for was because I couldn't imagine how I could grow old in a foreign country. I didn’t really know how I could grow old in my home country either, but I just thought there's more likelihood of being able to build something here. But actually, where I'm living now, I don't know if I'm going to carry on living there, or whether I might move 10 miles away...
Jody Day 36:28
I hear this a lot and say about ALTERKIN it's like, 'I'm not where I want to be yet’. Start anyway, because you're growing the capacity to build those kinds of relationships, to create those kinds of networks, you don't know where they might lead. There is no, there is no loss to building it.
Julie Greenan 36:49
That's true. No, you're right. Jody, that's That's true.
Jody Day 36:52
Then you'll have more experience if you need to transplant it somewhere else.
Julie Greenan 36:56
Indeed, indeed.
Jody Day 36:57
And I think sometimes that well, I'm not where I want to be, and therefore, I'm not ready to do this thought is also a way to mask our fear of the vulnerability of actually doing it, because it is really scary. You know, I'm doing this, and I'm asking these questions, and they're some of the most delicate conversations I've ever had.
Julie Greenan 37:31
Somebody made a comment and chat about churches and I know that we've, we've mentioned that about joining, uh, Sue particularly you're a church goer and involved with your church. I often really wish I could be—I can't. I haven't got it in me anymore to, you know, commit myself. I've just sort of moved away from those beliefs. And because I think, yeah, churches are great for keeping an eye on people. Or may not be, or may be terrible, but you know, they could be.
Jody Day 38:04
It's an established network. Exactly. Yeah, Donna, I'd love to hear from Susan as well.
Donna Ward 38:13
Just a brief point is that it's not about your geographical location. I've been very peripatetic in my life, I've moved from different places. I've been in this house for the longest, almost the longest I've ever lived in any house in my whole life. So I'm up to 13 years now here, and I've been trying to establish a community here in 13 years, and just every time, just when I think it's all tickety boo and going to, you know, roll over, everyone in the group changes. So they go to another country, somebody dies, somebody goes, gets very ill, whatever it is. Neighbors move, whatever it is. So it's like Jody said, I think, you know, it's, an ongoing process. It's not like having family. I have actually no family, but it's not like having any family. If you don't have any family, it's nothing like having family. There's no residual group that's going to stay there. And I think the art of ALTERKIN (Jody, great name), part of ALTERKIN is what, what we're going to develop in these coming years, and it's going to be an ever-changing process, whether you move or the world around you changes.
Jody Day 39:39
I just wanted to speak to this. Quite a lot of questions coming up in the chat about ALTERKIN. It's a project that I'm only just getting going. I do talk about it quite a lot in an interview that you can find on my Substack - there's an interview that I gave last year -it's a video/written interview with me, and I do talk about my ideas for it. There it is. Something that over the next year, I'm going to be talking about and writing about as I develop it in my local community, because my goal is to use my experience to hopefully create some kind of template that other people can use, and also to help people with the emotional challenges of these very delicate conversations, which can feel very exposing. There's a lot about that coming up in the chat, basically, what if people say no? What if they say no? We'll probably survive. But it's like, how do we have those conversations so that they can say no in a way which isn’t confronting? These are quite skilled conversations. And you know what they tap into what it is to be human. We are a tribal species. We know how to cooperate with each other. It's just we've lived in a culture that's told us it's weird, but actually, it's very natural to come together to support each other. Vicky's had a lot of experience in her community of doing something quite similar. Did you want to speak to that Vicky before we before? Oh, Susan, maybe. Did you want to talk?
Susan Dowrie 41:04
No, I'm responding to being conscious about what stories other people are projecting onto us, and what story we're telling ourselves about what's going on, and just being conscious of that, how that is limiting what you decide to do or say. One of the surprising parts about going on the road is that I find myself with people - I mean, I've because I've always been single. I've had the pity story. I've had the, you know, you could be making more effort. I've had all of those sorts of things. You poor thing, you know, the whole the whole thing, I don't get any of that on the road. There are lots of people traveling by themselves, and what I get is the story, oh, you're so adventurous, you're so brave. I mean, that's a lot easier to carry, but it is no more true than the other stories, and it really helps me see. And the other part I think about the practising the ALTERKIN is to start small. Yes, I'm hobbling around with a stick, and when I walk into a shop, you know, people are anxious. They don't want me to fall over on their doorstep, and they have to fill out the paperwork. Well, we're just coming in at the same time. Can I give you a hand? So even just try for yourself, what would it be like to say? Oh, yes, it just makes it so much easier. Thank you. What you've done is say it's a subscribed thing. I don't expect you to be standing at this shop door and helping me over the threshold every single time. I don't expect you to pick me up from the hospital every single time I need to pick up. I want it on this day, between this hours, would you do that? Or saying, no, actually, that the offer of the threshold is really kind, thank you, but I don't really need that. What would help, though, is two strong legs to run to, to walk the extra miles, which are really hard for me, down to the plumbing section, to get a such and such. Would you be willing to do that? To try and tweak it. Those are just little practice sessions.
Jody Day 43:17
Thank you. And something also about asking for help. And I love your skill there around asking for help is that people like helping, and what that actually does, also, when you ask for help, or when you give help, it's actually an opportunity for connection, and connection leads to relationship. So a lot of the loneliness and lack of connection, we're terrified of asking for help, in case people think we're needy. People like being asked, as long as we get skillful about giving them a way to say no if it doesn't work, and then you can start to build a relationship through it. So it's actually kind of beautiful. I mean, obviously not everyone's nice and easy like that, but you'd be surprised. Many are actually.
Carol Scott 43:59
But I think we can develop a hyper-independence and making it hard to to ask. I mean, I do ask, and my kind of motto around that is, if I get a no, then I'm going to ask someone else, and if I get another No, I'm going to ask someone else. Every no is getting me nearer to a yes. But that's the philosophy I have around that, because it's like I've got to acknowledge my vulnerability here, and it's hard for someone who's been an independent woman most of her life, even though I've been in relationships, still fiercely independent, hyper-independent, through my upbringing, but I've really had to embrace that. I'm vulnerable. I've got to go and have an endoscopy in three weeks time, you know, and somebody was going to come, you know, they can't have to ask someone else. I want someone to come with me. I do not want to go and do that proceedure I'm on my own because I'm scared to have it anyway, but it needs to be done. So, you know, I'm just going to keep asking, and I still have some faith that somebody will, someone will show up, you know.
Jody Day 45:11
And I think you make a really important point there, which also relates to long-term singleness, is that we are, by nature, through singleness, hyper-independent, and we have grown up, all of us, in cultures, we've had an opportunity as women, to be hyper-independent in a way that our ancestors couldn't be. So actually, to sort of to segue from that into being someone who shows vulnerability and asks for help is possibly going to be quite uncomfortable at first. And that's one of the things coaching around ALTERKIN is to really help us with the kind of the emotional discomfort, by supporting each other that, yeah, this can this can feel quite icky, you know, but when the alternative is not being helped at all, and maybe getting ourselves into a position where we have an extreme vulnerability and we're on our own with it, and we haven't built relationships with people we can ask.... It's like the price of not pushing through this discomfort and building this asking for help and building community muscle is too high, and for those of us without partners, or who perhaps can't rely on someone else, it's a cost we just can't bear.
Carol Scott 46:22
As we were going tribe, you know, AWOC, which, I think it's just London based, isn't it, Jody (It’s across the UK, Ageing Without Children). But, you know, we're, they're starting to have more meetups in person, and they've got more resources. Because I think as we're speaking up, you know, more and more 'The Non Mum Network', 'Gateway Women'. But we're finding our voice more that people are looking more into solo eldership. So I'm finding that, you know, there's going to be a London AWOC, and I haven't been to one before. I've joined Solo Women Travellers, which is all around the world. Some of us met up in a London pub. So, you know, it's like we, I think we can cultivate these things for ourselves if we can put a hand on our heart and say, Yeah, I need this.
Julie Greenan 47:24
I can really vouch for, yeah, the the there are, there is a growing number of regional AWOC groups in England, I don't know about the rest of the UK, but, and there's particularly one in York, where they have a great deal of resources, and there's a growing group in Leeds who meet up in person. Um, I just wanted to have a slightly self-indulgent rant about hyper-independence, because I had to become self reliant. I didn't want to, but I had to, or I thought I had to, so I get really good at doing things and not asking people and not crying and saying, I can't do this. And then somebody's saying, 'Oh, but you're so independent, you're so resourceful, you're so capable'. I don't want to be so bloody capable. I never did want to be—well didn't want to be helpless—But you know what I mean? I didn't want to not need anyone else. And I just kind of think, Oh, well, gee thanks. Why didn't you say that in the first place?
Jody Day 48:26
I think you're getting a lot of nods and smiles there.
Donna Ward 48:29
I think, yeah, if I could just quickly say it's that real. It's a spiky paradox, isn't it? Because I've always had to do everything on my own because I am on my own. And then I'm told the reason I'm on my own is because I'm so independent, right? And if I start to say I'm really tired of doing absolutely everything—you know, the mental cognitive load is Jody referred to it—they sit there and they tell you that you should ask more, but they don't come and help you because they think that you're doing it anyhow. So yeah, it's just a little insane. Yeah, yeah, I'll just put that there. It's a little thing I live with every day. Yeah,
Susan Dowrie 49:17
Or you have really stupid conversations about who does the plumbing in their household, the husband, the wife?
Donna Ward 49:23
Yeah, you don't care.
Jody Day 49:35
We've got a few minutes left. And there was one last theme, which was, and it's for this time of year, it's coping with grief, exclusion and grandchildren, grief at Christmas. What tips do we have for people to maybe help if they're feeling lonely, vulnerable, griefy and excluded at this time of year? And if you could do that in five minutes! And that includes Hannukah and all other celebrations as well.
Ruth Berkowitz 50:11
So I've pretty much been single most of my adulthood, except for when I was in my 20s, and then for a few years in my 40s. So I got very good at holidays as a single person, also living far away from family. And the arc of that is, just letting go, learning to not judge my experiences as less than, and embrace it with making choices for the day. You know, rather than just like, 'Oh, I'm not invited anywhere, I have nothing to do' and just sort of being depressed about it, actually asking myself, 'Well, what would feel good to do this day? What do I want to eat? Do I want to go somewhere special?' I'm a big movie person, and so pick out a really good movie. Yeah, it's so try not to judge that what you're doing is less than the the Hallmark idealization of what other people are doing. Yeah, but it is real.
Jody Day 51:35
I mean, it is, it is tough though not be included, yeah? I mean, when I was solo myself, I think I'd got to the point where I just about learned how to work out everything. But I was still working on Christmas and holidays, as in, going on holiday. I think I'd nearly got to the point where I'd worked out how to do that on my own without being either the third wheel or lonely. You know, there was a sort of middle-ground, and Christmas, I was nearly there, but it's really challenging for a lot of women who can afford to and it's their thing, go away, go away somewhere sunny. But that's not always an option. So are we doing to manage holidays, this festive season?
Sue Fagalde Lick 52:26
I did Thanksgiving with the family. I think we really have two choices. We can avoid it all together, yes, go someplace warm and sunny and ignore the whole thing, you know, hide, or we can dive in with family, or whatever. And, you know, gather as many people as possible and try to enjoy and appreciate all the parenting things that will be inflicted on us. Yeah, so the year in grandma and Mama land, and you're the odd one out. But, you know, try to enjoy it as much as possible, or avoid it, or say no to everybody, and do it your way, as Ruth suggested. And stay the hell off of Facebook.
Julie Greenan 53:12
I think you can. You can do a kind of blend, really, of limited contact with the family stuff, if that's what really does your head in, to limit that and to be very choosy. But what I found is doing your nice things that you like to do, which may be seasonal things or may not. And actually, for me, just keeping in touch with like-minded people. So, you know getting into the chats on Gateway Women and keeping in touch, personally with with like-minded friends and other women. Because just even by WhatsApp, you know, makes you feel more in connection and less alone, I think. Or can do.
Ruth Berkowitz 54:06
Can I add one thing to my answer, and it sort of applies to all the themes we're talking about, which is a service orientation to life. Like I've been a host for an hour on the Childless Collective chat on Christmas, and that's a nice, really nice thing to do. It takes me out of myself and feeling like I'm the only one, and my service helps other women like me. Getting out of myself by, how can I serve others?
Jody Day 54:42
That's that's always helped me as well. And if you're wondering, once listening, what's the Childless Collective? It's the new name for the Gateway Women online community for the last few years, if you go to the Gateway Women website and click on "online community", it will take you through to the Childless Collective community. And on the 25th December, there is a round the clock wommaned live chat that goes on, which covers all time zones. So there's always at least two people sitting there waiting for your call, waiting to have a chat with you. And you don't have to talk about Christmas. You can talk about anything. It's very it's good fun and very lively.
Vicki Robin 55:23
I'm like, yeah, it's I've had excruciating experiences, and one because I had a real disruption in my life, and I left the whole circle of meaning, and I just took myself out on my own. I had cancer, and I thought, well, if I'm I'm going to die, I really want to know who's in here before I go. Because, when you're in a social setting or a family, you can lose yourself in just adaptation everywhere to all different personalities. So I want to first acknowledge the excruciating experience and then say, you know, on my spiritual journey, self- observation and compassion is a really important part of it. It's like, okay, who is it in here? Who is just so sad and offering compassion to, you know, rather than coping mechanisms, which are also delightful, just offering compassion to that one who was excluded, who the popular girls didn't, you know, like I was, I was always on the edge, you know, just like going, okay, that's part of the human experience, and I'm willing to be a human.
Susan Dowrie 56:28
Yeah, thank you, Vicki for saying that, it's part of that sort of loneliness thing. And I think the other thing we haven't spoken about is sexuality, the assumption, the sort of dichotomous assumption, that you're either have no experience or that you are, you know, available to anything, up for anything. And as I was I was saying I really don't want to talk about how you resolve your plumbing and other household issues, what I do need to acknowledge to myself, because I can really get anybody else to hear it, what I really yearn for is that tenderness and touch and kindness and situational humor that develops with someone that you're really close to. You're in tune, attunement, wry discussion, talking through issues and problems with someone who actually really cares and is going to follow up and is interested in the outcome and invested. It's a lot.
Jody Day 58:05
God I love you Susan, you always go right to the the heart of things... thank you for that.
Carol Scott 58:12
I'm going to spend Christmas with myself. That's kind of the way I've actually got two invites, which is lovely, but I've decided I'm going to spend it my myself, because it's going to be the first one when my mum isn't around. And so it's going to be a bit of a challenge, I think. But I do this thing called, it's an acronym called TRACK and it's, I will Tune into myself. Yeah, I will Recognize what is going on with me, whether that's sadness, grief, loneliness. I'll Accept that I have those feelings. I'll then have a good Cry if I need to, and then the K is for Kindness. I will go into deep kindness towards myself, that for me, is what it's I've learned that it's taken me many years to get this whole concept of self-compassion. I've read books about it which will talk about it, but to actually really embody it? It's taken me a long time to get there, but it's crucial.
Jody Day 59:23
Thank you for that-it's been an absolutely transformative practice for me too. I'm afraid we're out of time. When you get the replay of this tomorrow, there will be a slide in the replay which has resources for you, which includes some amazing books, Donna's book, She I Dare Not Name, Sue's book 'No Way Out of This'. This one, which is an incredibly practical book, ‘Who Will Take Care of Me When 'I’m Old?’ - absolutely full of really practical tips and it doesn't presume that we're all rich and coupled. Another one from another of our regular panelists. 'Do You Have Kids, LIfe When the Answer is No' - Some really interesting interviews with older women without children, in all kinds of different living situations, which is really good. This is actually an oldie, but a goodie, it’s one of my favorites, Gloria Steinem, ‘Doing 60 and 70’ —it's really a feminist reflection on what it means to be getting older as a woman, as an outsider - it's a really powerful book. Also Vicky's amazing Substack which is called Coming of Aging. Julie's new Substack, and Sue Fagadle Lick's amazing Substack as well. I will be sending you all of those things for you to follow up on.
Jody Day 1:00:41
So thank you so much. Thank you to Carol and Vicky and Julie and Susan and Donna and Sue and Ruth for being with us today, for what has been an incredible conversation. I wish we could go on for another several hours, and I wish you could all be in the room with me this holiday season. Thank you for being part of really rethinking what it means to be growing older as a woman without children and as a woman without a partner -- it's so powerful. I think there's so much wisdom here. I think we can do this. I think we can do this. I'm thinking actually, of the title of Vicki's podcast. 'What could possibly go right?’
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